Following the my post on the youngsters out-of Llywelyn Fawr and Joanna and answers it received, I seemed again from genealogical users on the subject of Gwladus Ddu. While it is real, given that several genealogists explain, you to throughout the lack of particular research one way or another, the latest identity of the mommy regarding Gwladus Ddu need continue to be ‘unknown’, I discovered you should not changes my conclusion you to definitely their particular mother is actually Joanna and never Tangwystyl.
She kept not a problem from the Alexander II
You to definitely subsequent source about the pupils ‘s the after the abstract regarding ‘Leaders and you can Queens out-of Britain’ an authoritative guide, compiled by Oxford University Drive, web page 106:
‘Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth, b.1173, child away from Iorwerth Drwyndwn (‘Flatnose’) and you can Marared, daughter regarding Madog ap Maredudd; acc. eastern Gwynedd 1195; hitched Joan, illegitimate daughter out of King John, 1205; issue: Gruffudd (illegitimate), Dafydd, Gwenllian, Helen, Gwladus, Margaret, Susanna; died 11 April 1240; buried: Aberconwy.’
Basic, allow me to spend tribute to Sharon. Her browse to have ‘HBD’, ‘Drops the latest Shadow’ and ‘This new Reckoning’, carried out until the advent of the web, is actually it really is a great. Virtually everything you she’s printed in one trilogy really stands intimate examination today.
To show that it is not only me you to definitely thinks thus, let me offer one to genealogist that is good partner regarding Sharon: “I’m very partial to Sharon Kay Penman’s instructions. While they are not purely biographical, Personally i think warmer counting on their work to ‘fill in the fresh new blanks’ (given the number of research she of course put into their books), than in indeed pointing out particular genealogical offer which i have come all over inside my research (I understand most of us stumble on source in that way). In order to anyone who has not even comprehend their particular functions, I will suggest it very very, specifically if you need to get a be for just what lives are such as for instance 800 in years past.”
Following inquiries presented by the Beth, Suzanne and you will Exotic in particular, I set about evaluating the new identity regarding Joanna’s mother (referred to hereafter, to possess easier reference as the ‘Clemence’ perhaps not ‘Clementia’) courtesy an event on the so you can-be-king John. Just after running upwards of many blind alleys, generally courtesy trying get together again new chronology of 1 into the most other, We have settled on what pursue. Really don’t claim that everything i have written is actually decisive in almost any profile otherwise mode, plus the facts are that we are likely to never be sure away from their own title.
(a) Brand new illegitimate Joanna, daughter of “Clemence,” are definitely born out of wedlock –– as well as turned out by Honorius III’s decree claiming their particular genuine from inside the April 1226, no matter if rather than bias toward king or world of The united kingdomt (i.e., offering their own no claim to that particular throne). The decree, that has been transcribed on amazing, unpublished Sign in out-of Honorius III (Reg. Vat. 13, fol. 122 ), says inter alia you to definitely “Johannes Rex anglie solutus te genuerit de- soluta,” hence, I’m told, translates as “Queen John off England, whenever solitary , fathered your because of the a single lady.”
This action turned out to be more cutting-edge than simply I’d has envision possible!
It indicates Joanna have been created zero later on than just 1189 whenever John hitched Isabella out-of Gloucester. Her mother, “Clemence” are most likely French or Norman, given that proof regarding patent goes out of John’s leadership shows that Joan is brought off Normandy so you’re able to England when you look at the December 1203, to arrange getting relationship to Llywelyn abdominal Iorwerth (select lower than). Joanna died within the Feb 1237.
(b) John’s genuine child Joan, of the Isabella of Angouleme (married to John inside the 1200 at the decades a dozen!), was https://brightwomen.net/tr/birmanya-kadinlari/ born at the Gloucester for the 22 July 1210 (comprehend the Tewkesbury Annals in the Goes Series, vol. 36.we, p. 59; the brand new Worcester Annals, ibid., vol. 36.iv, p. 399; and also the Rotuli Litterarum Patencium to possess John’s Reign, pp. 124, 143). This is actually the Joan just who then hitched Alexander II regarding Scotland and she died in 1238, specific days immediately following Joanna (this may be the cause of some of the frustration evident within a couple women).